vaultofthearchonfandomcom-20200214-history
107620-new-content-vs-bug-fixes
Content ---- ---- Chua fix Nili's post. | |} ---- ---- ---- its surprisingly easy actually and usually due to the programmer working on new things. they have an old version of some component on their build environment. they create new things, they pass their "product" off to QA and tell them this is what I put in, make sure it works. because the OLDER content wasnt touched and the testers cannot QA the ENTIRE game, they test what they are told to. the patch goes live..and an old broken version hits live. happens a lot if coders are not careful and make sure they have the latest version of everything on their build environment | |} ---- The drop team is smaller than the bug fix team at this point, from my understanding. That's what your "inb4" is skimming over. The drop team has most of this stuff done; they're simply adapting it to the fixes and changes they've since made. A lot of what seem to us to be minor graphical issues are actually conflicts happening between engine components, and they need to be changed for the content drop. | |} ---- (I am talking about the bold area here) In a previous post this was talked about. They have somewhere near 5-6 environments they test in and run at one time at Carbine. Why force yourselves into this? (They also stated that they had so many because of the volume of content drops they have) Why not stop content drops, cut back on the number of environments and fix your issues? Can they not see how these overlooks and issues are effecting their community? Or do they just not care if they continue to break things and create more broken content? | |} ---- ---- That's impossible to answer unless you work there and know the culture + background of why this happened or how this evolved in the first place. There's definitely a reason behind it why they did it like this. | |} ---- Even if it is, they still create more than they fix with their drops. This would hold water to me and most if their were LESS bugs with each drop and not more. This reads to me as we have less people to test the things we are bringing out so we can guarantee more bugs. How is that a good model? | |} ---- ---- ya and that's my point I am trying to make, obviously it isn't working :P | |} ---- matter of perception. it's working for them, and that's all that counts. They have to work in that environment and if it makes sense to them for whatever reason, then they should keep it. Nobody here on these forums even has a clue what working over there is like, or what working in such an environment or project is like. Anyone claiming they do, can post his credentials like I did to show he does. | |} ---- It seems like there's some massive communication breakdown at Carbine that results in old builds without bugs fixed being pushed to live and re-breaking things over and over and over and over again. In some cases they don't even push out the fixed build in the first place. It's bizarre that they apparently don't have their pipeline sorted out yet after all this time. | |} ---- That's like saying, hey we have all these quests and bugs that are breaking the game, but it works for us so who cares? There are tons of threads daily about bugs that have been around months and tons of threads daily about new bugs from both drops. Obviously it isn't working. | |} ---- Totally different topic. Don't try to turn bugs in a product into an argument to fight over when we're talking about their development cycle. I don't even care whatever "perfect" development solution you come up with, your end product WILL have bugs in it. | |} ---- not sure about Helping Hands because I know it was only broken after the Strain drop. I havent seen any issues with it after or prior to that | |} ---- True, there will never be a perfect environment. Again what I was stating in the beginning and what I will state again is why is Carbine dead set on releasing new content and new bugs that are not properly tested and working? Why do they continue to cause new bugs and break existing bugs instead of focusing everything on fixing the issues they have before releasing new content? That is my question | |} ---- Read my other replies in the threads made about this, I'm not retyping this every time. You know the answer as well as I do on that question. | |} ---- ---- and that's my point, Carbine is backwards in their thought process and it shows | |} ---- ---- I think you are delving a bit into hyperbole. They definitely fix more than they cause with each drop. They do cause some; that's inevitable, and they're new so we talk about them. But they're definitely fixing more than they make. Remember, having a class you play nerfed for damage and not liking it might strike a player as problematic, but it isn't a bug. We're talking about sheer software-not-working-as-intended-from-a-technical-standpoint bugs. Relatively more of Carbine's problems right now seem to center around attunement and the grind. Not necessarily their technical issues, but the practical considerations behind their design decisions. That couldn't be said a month after launch, where almost all the posts were about bugs. I mean, fair enough that you don't like new content drops having bugs, but the game wasn't in a horrible state at launch for a launch MMORPG, and it's better now than it was. Not perfect, but pretty respectable for a software company of 200 just more than two months after launch. | |} ---- No, you assume them to be. Again you're forcing what you think is the solution to a problem you perceive. | |} ---- I agree at first with any new content drop there is always bugs, but when they drop something and have bugs and they persist through the next drop there is a problem, and that's what the issue is | |} ---- lol, ok well thanks for your input, but I disagree and a lot of others do too | |} ---- is it always the same issue? like needing 2 people to do it? | |} ---- Which is your right. Just don't force thoughts or assumptions unless you can prove it. | |} ---- and same to you sir | |} ---- ---- Players will always have issues with the priority list for bug fixes, whether justified or not. | |} ---- agreed, PvP want PvP fixed now, PvE the same and I know this. My biggest issue is when they bring out new content that breaks things from closed beta and causes new bugs that don't get fixed and roll over into the new drops and it continues from there. All I am saying is instead of compounding their issues why don't they stop their rate of new drops and fix the known issues the best they can? Why do they HAVE to stick to this system? | |} ---- Because they don't want the higher-ups to do some unpleasant things to them for not following their instructions? Like any other job? moderator edit: content Edited August 11, 2014 by Chillia | |} ---- ---- Because they're fixing their former bugs; the reason you don't hear it talked about is because people don't care. And if they extended the development time of the patches, they'd not only still have the bugs anyway with the new drop, but they'd also have people complaining about the lack of new content. Read the weekly patch notes; see if they actually cause more problems in a month than they fix. | |} ---- I like how this is always the cop-out for people. We're afraid of losing our job if we don't do exactly as we are told. Hopefully it doesn't crash and burn! Constructive criticism and feedback can go a long way, but people are too afraid to talk to their supervisor that way... and that's why I talked about that in my original post, there will always be people that complain about content and frankly I could care less. What I care about and what I see a ton of people on the forums talking about are the bugs and the fixes that need to be implemented. New content only makes that harder. | |} ---- ---- I do ask that we keep this on topic please. There are a lot of people adamant about things in this game and people are quick to tell others off. I truly tried to make this post for a real conversation, so I please ask, if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. Thanks! | |} ---- Fixed that for you. | |} ---- now again, this is my own opinion but I think this is the big disconnect here and what will ultimately win out in the end. I think Carbine probably has some pretty big downward push from NCSoft and from the "C"s in Carbines office for content drops being monthly and there being no wiggle room. I understand that they want to make money but I am pretty sure neither NCSoft nor the big wigs at Carbine have any true understanding of the amount of in-game issues there are and what is really happening in game. | |} ---- ---- Shakyntani's "edit" is exactly that. Higher ups only care about making their money, and have no clue about the development cycles involved. And that's speaking out of experience. The higher up you go in the hierarchy chain, the less they know/understand about gaming and the volatility they are dealing with. Classic error in gaming companies: trying to handle the gamer market like any classic market : IT DOES NOT WORK. | |} ---- I honestly don't think NC should breath down anyone's neck too hard since they don't seem to grasp the western way of doing things for the most part. I do want current state of the game to be improved before adding more on top though-you can't build on a shaky foundation and expect things to hold up. There is a lot of quality of life changes that should be made before going forward. There needs to be a big improvement in QA. Giving us half cooked food is gonna get really old really fast. | |} ---- That reminds me of this investor at a Nintendo's meeting basically saying: "I don't play or know anything about videogames and I don't care, now shall we talk about how to make more money from videogames? Oh and fire the CEO who is the programmer responsible for saving Earthbound" | |} ---- ---- And then people wonder why so much "crap" is being released on the market. Call of Duty remakes, Star Wars the Force Unleashed 2, SimCity 4, Mario World whatever, Sonic 6 to name a few. | |} ---- In the beginning they seemed to have such a good grasp though. I don't understand why it's so hard to realize how important a "first impression" with mmos is. There have been so many examples to look at, games that have crashed and burnt and why so. It is insulting when you see the playerbase get ignored about some major issues though (Espers for example) due to outrigh stubbornness. | |} ---- Thanks for the reply and I look forward to hearing what the plan is. | |} ---- I don't want to start the whole debate again, but the problem is on two sides here. Community demanding unreasonable things and entitlement issues. I don't want to argue about it, but finding a bug or class balance issue and demanding, yes demanding it to be fixed yesterday simply does not fly. And yes Carbine should try to improve their released software despite their limited test capabilities. | |} ---- Thanks for responding and it's good to know something is coming even if it is soon™. | |} ---- IMO, this happens because of a general idea in gaming today that will end up killing the gaming industry. The idea is, "Why fix now when we can fix later...when we already have their money." I understand MMO's are somewhat different than other games but MMO companies still suffer from this capitalist point of view; money first, quality later. The industry has flipped priorities from "making quality entretainment" first to "screw quality, we just want your money". The proof of this lies when we compare independent games to mainstream games. Independent games are, for the most part, labors of love. The game-maker is intent on creating an enjoyable game without thinking about how much money they're gonna make. This does not mean independent game-makers don't expect to make money off of their creations. Of course they do! The difference is that money is not their driving force. It is not their main motive or source of motivational energy. Their energy comes from the desire to create a well-made, complete game that will hopefully be appreciated by their target audience. In psychological terms this is what is known as intrinsic and extrinsic motivation (Self-Determination Theory), which also relates to primary and secondary reinforcements (B.F. Skinner's Operational Conditioning Theory). Money is an extrinsic motivator and secondary reinforcement, whereas that feeling of accomplishment you experience when you know you have succesfully completed an endeavor is an intrinsic motivator and a primary reinforcement. It is generally considered and accepted by the psychological community that intrinsic motivation and primary reinforcements are more effective than extrinsic motivation and secondary reinforcements. However, western society has evolved to where individuals and institutions alike pay more attention to extrinsic motivators and secondary reinforcements. That is why athletes no longer compete to feel accomplished or because they love the game. They compete to get the most endorsements and the juiciest contracts. Why musical "artists" no longer write music to express and share their feelings or to retaliate against the current establishment. They write whatever the recording company thinks is gonna sell the most cd's/downloads/concert tickets. Why the amount of really, REALLY good, praise-deserving games has significantly reduced because publishers will push whatever crap they think will sell, even if that means using and reusing the same formula, over and over and over again (e.g., Modern Warfare and all you "can't reinvent the wheel"-type thinkers). | |} ---- I want to make it clear, even if sometimes it comes across this way, I am not demanding a fix right this second, I am just asking them to think about the quality of life of the game as it stands vs what has happened the last two drops (since they weren't as pretty as they expected). All I would like to see is them come out and say, we are more focused at this point in fixing the quality of the game and are going to hold off on new content until we are happy with the way things are. That way they aren't forced into a period to fix the issues and once the game is back on track they can continue to bring out content. For me this is a win win | |} ---- I don't need to argue about it though. The esper issue was not at all entitlement. It was a poor vision of a class that did not belong in this game and they got what they wanted and rightly so. When you provide a service you are at your customer's mercy in so many ways. I dunno how theres any debate for that lol. It's less about bugs really but the things design wise that made it from beta to live after metric tons of feedback about how it wasn't gonna be acceptable is just a bit telling of mentalities in the company. I did see that Carbine is hiring a QA lead so maybe thats a good thing for the future. | |} ---- Don't misunderstand, some of these things should have received a higher priority, totally with you on that one. I'm more aiming at how certain parts of the "community", if you can call it that, react on these forums. | |} ---- You found the nail and hit it squarely on the head sir. | |} ---- Yeah and I am a pretty colorful person and get pretty passionate whether in a positive of negative way about something I care about. So when I feel something jeopardizes the future of something I'm invested in I get all kinds of bent about it. Especially when I feel it could have been avoided. I would gladly trade longer drop periods for more bug fixes and needed balance and quality of life changes-because these thing are core. Content can arrive later on. Like I said the foundation has to be solid. | |} ---- I just hope it doesn't mean pushing content to two-three month periods. :( | |} ---- I think, again my opinion, if they can get the game in a better place quality of life wise this wouldn't need to be. I think they should have a few months to get it to that point but then they can focus solely on the new content and fix things as they come instead of dealing with everything they have now. I don't mind content monthly if the QA is able to stay on top of it and keep the bugs down and the quality up. As we see it now, in my opinion, it isn't that way :( | |} ---- ---- ---- That too :) | |} ---- Honestly, I'm pretty sure the bugs that remain are systematic in nature, and are probably more "hard code" issues. Those probably aren't the same people adapting systems for the new drops. There aren't that many issues that are truly technical bugs that have been around since launch. I was re-running the quests again and a lot of the things I saw initially are fixed. So they're definitely working through the bugs. What's more of an issue is what's going to happen when that hopper of new content is out and, instead of adapting the old new content, they have to create brand new new content. They have to have their major game issues sorted by then to keep up the release schedule. | |} ---- ---- That's probably true, but I have a feeling it's more due to people's reliance on immediacy conflicting with their desire (especially here in the US) to have everything that does everything. We, as modern, first world people, want to eat our cake and keep it, too. We want more things that intrinsically require more complexity, but we aren't willing to wait for them to be there or deal with the consequences of that speed. Divorced as we are from the production (via the extinction of the craftsman as the primary means of production whose authority was never questioned) we aren't appreciative of the necessary investment of those who produce our goods. Nottino's point is to understand that production to a degree and say that, in terms of raw numbers, removing people from the hypothetical task of "content drops" frees them up for the hypothetical task of "bug fixing". My disagreement with that point is that, fundamentally, people aren't lego bricks and these tasks aren't cars on an assembly line (much as we've adapted the analogy). Adding more people to the task does not necessarily produce faster or more accurate results; these people aren't factory workers screwing bolts onto an engine who can be duplicated on another line or whose work can be divided to speed up production. In essence, bug fixing and content dropping aren't bricks on one corner of the yard that need moved and stacked on the other. The larger point, I think for people less aware of the issue of conservation that Nottino is trying to articulate, leads to people wanting a game that already does everything perfectly right now. That's simply not feasible, and rather insulting to the developers who've put so much work into this game. I don't think it's fair to lump Nottino into that camp, though. He's asking whether or not a re-allocation of resources would feasibly affect the build quality of outgoing new content. While I don't imagine it does, it's probably also fair to say both of us could be wrong, and also that it's very difficult to know. It's fair to raise the point, at least. | |} ---- ---- I think it's equally insulting as a player that some things made it to live the way they are and being told that as a developer is just deserts when we told them before live about it. | |} ---- ---- And unfortunately, if they do that, they'll get plenty of "You made us wait just for THAT?!" But if they release more (and thus more potentially bugged) content at once, they'll get plenty of "You just couldn't have waited a few more weeks/months, could you? You had to release this broken mess right now!". Game developploppment is like Wargames. But then, other people would complain about that, too. | |} ---- Does seem to be damned if you do damned if you don't I guess. Bottom line is that what they have been doing isnt working so shifting to the other side seems like the next logical choice. | |} ---- I didn't realize tirelessly means take the weekend off. | |} ---- fortunately few players are like you and expect them to work 24/7 | |} ---- | |} ---- ---- I have a year of observations plus things that were explained to us during beta. I have a lot more solid of an idea than you do, and you're wrong. Also, don't take things personally that aren't. This isn't about whether I like you, this is about the fact I question your motives in starting and repeating these conversations every few days. Obsessing over problems you have no control or understanding of doesn't get them solved faster, and doesn't improve the attitude of the community. In other words though it may not be your intent, you're trolling. Nothing you've said is helpful to the devs in resolving issues, and none of your demands for information get things done faster. | |} ---- and if you were to follow this thread at all, it seems people agree with me. So thanks for your input, but I do again ask you to move on since you have nothing to contribute to this conversation and are only here to attack and get this thread off topic. | |} ---- So the only way to be 'productive' in a topic you admit you're repeating yourself, is to agree with you. Got it. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Yes and no. They make new stuff but they also code the new stuff. The bugs just don't come out of no where, they arise because the new code breaks something, so they're making new bugs, so they should be able to fix their own bugs in the new content before launch. So they're not testing (QA) but they are fixing bugs prelaunch as they go. | |} ---- yep. | |} ---- yep =) | |} ---- honestly if it was for a short period it would be better if they did until things are in a better state. go back to every month after a few months of fixes =). It sucks, but long term life vs short term gratification is basically what that comes down to. | |} ---- ---- ----